Training for long climbs with no such climbs around?

[deepakvrao]

Hi guys,

Before we did Mt Ventoux, we had trained by doing Nandi repeats. Much later Roopak, and I think Rajesh also had said that those kind of repeats have not much value, and better to do a single climb at threshold or above. Doesn't make sense to me. How do you get the simulation of a long climb then?

So, suggestions, links, workouts, anything you guys can suggest as training for a long climb when you have no such climb around? By long, I mean 20-25km.

If I remember right, Hari also had a similar question once when we were riding together.

[RNair]

You don't need to have long climbs to train for one. There are other alternative methods to train for long climbs. You will be able to climb them but won't be setting any records. That is how I deal with it. Accept it.

Muscular endurance is the key. Your legs give up on long climbs. To train, one can even ride flats and train into the headwinds. Ride low gears to emulate some of that. Once you develop strength ( Deepak this is for you). Ride Nandi on 53/50 - and the lowest gear possible ( 15-12). Don't move the upper body, hands must feel free, knuckles should not be red, and let the quads and glutes all the work. HR should stay low. Do seated first time and then repeat off the saddle.

Then Hill repeats to get the heart to work. Nandi is more than enough.


^^^ All of the above is for people who have a good base and strength to endure. Not for Novice cyclists.

[ksp]

Windy routes with no drafting?

Edit: RNair has included this

[deepakvrao]

Once you develop strength ( Deepak this is for you).


^^^ All of the above is for people who have a good base and strength to endure. Not for Novice cyclists.

Thanks. Makes sense, and what I had suspected you would suggest.

( Deepak this is for you) - Meaning? Get more strength before starting riding in big gears? What kind of cadence are you talking about?

[RNair]

This is for you meaning you are ready for such intense workouts.

I think you can ride once a week on 53/11-12 for the entire distance of the your ride. Focus is on muscular efforts and not cardio. So you will be riding low rpm 55-65rpm engaging the muscles but keeping your upper body loose. 50-60k is fine. Next day recover with an agility ride at a moderate rpm.

Same with climbs, make one effort on the toughest gear u can ride always making sure there is no spike in HR.
Try also climbing off the saddle - Again low HR.

The people I ride with do 9k climbs all off the saddle on such gears! I am not capable of doing it right now.

[harism]

Don't move the upper body, hands must feel free, knuckles should not be red, and let the quads and glutes all the work. HR should stay low. Do seated first time and then repeat off the saddle.

How much of a factor is a strong core? I know it seems to take 2+ min off my Nandi time other things being equal and my good climbs have always been when the upper body feels strong but loose/relaxed - for which you need some core strength, right?
<OT but related> Also what about off-the-bike workouts for quads & glutes? I kept complaining around TfN '11 about how I seemed to have lost power on climbs and sprints. It now turns out that I had small glute and upper quad tears, most probably from effort (Nandi climb ) without sufficient base, strength training or warming up. As they are healing, the climbing is getting easier. Not yet much faster, but way easier.

Then Hill repeats to get the heart to work. Nandi is more than enough.

The whole hill is too long - I find I have a problem with the too-long recovery with the full descent. Repeating either the first bit or the steeper last 1/3rd seems to work better for me. Is that what you meant?

[rpok]

If you climb smaller hills at threshold, you'll be able to climb longer hills at tempo easily without stopping. Its not about heart/lungs anymore on long hills - its just legs.
So muscular endurance is the key. Even then Nandi aint steep enough compared to climbs i've experienced outside in CA, so you need to put in a bigger gear preferably on 50 ring to simulate muscular endurance.

[rpok]

I'd also say to not worry too much about off the saddle efforts especially when you weigh > 70 kilos. I mean i find it more efficient when i'm sitting on the saddle unless i'm tackling really steep gradients. I just put my hands on the top of bars, head down, grind down a big enough gear and concentrate on putting the power out on the climb. If its a long climb, i spin more to conserve legs initially. I must say when you're not that strong or have climbing specific training, 50/34 ring instead of 53/39 helps a lot in tackling double digit gradients on long climbs.
Recently I tackled a really steep climb 4.5kms out of which last 3.5kms were 13% avg gradient. I just used 34x26 and mashed it around. If it was 39 ring, i'd probably not have completed the climb.

[RNair]

I would still suggest climbing off the saddle even if you weigh 70. 70 is not a bad weight in the world of cycling. The idea being you are still developing strength on the bike by being off the saddle and learning to work with your muscles while keeping HR low. Initially you will see a spike in HR but soon you will learn to keep it steady. Also getting in and out of the saddle on long climbs helps you rest some muscles. On race you may sit and climb and ride in your most efficient form but in training you work on the weaker aspects of your riding.

[RNair]

Don't move the upper body, hands must feel free, knuckles should not be red, and let the quads and glutes all the work. HR should stay low. Do seated first time and then repeat off the saddle.

How much of a factor is a strong core? I know it seems to take 2+ min off my Nandi time other things being equal and my good climbs have always been when the upper body feels strong but loose/relaxed - for which you need some core strength, right?
<OT but related> Also what about off-the-bike workouts for quads & glutes? I kept complaining around TfN '11 about how I seemed to have lost power on climbs and sprints. It now turns out that I had small glute and upper quad tears, most probably from effort (Nandi climb ) without sufficient base, strength training or warming up. As they are healing, the climbing is getting easier. Not yet much faster, but way easier.

Then Hill repeats to get the heart to work. Nandi is more than enough.

The whole hill is too long - I find I have a problem with the too-long recovery with the full descent. Repeating either the first bit or the steeper last 1/3rd seems to work better for me. Is that what you meant?

Core work is important and so is lower back and glutes. Most of this work you do when in the base period. Also resistance training.

On Nandi I won't even go all the way to the top. Most of these workouts can be done where Nandi flattens out. There are so many ways to climb and do repeats.

I can list at least 6-7 different workouts one can do in a set or two on that hill.

[deepakvrao]

I would still suggest climbing off the saddle even if you weigh 70. 70 is not a bad weight in the world of cycling. The idea being you are still developing strength on the bike by being off the saddle and learning to work with your muscles while keeping HR low. Initially you will see a spike in HR but soon you will learn to keep it steady. Also getting in and out of the saddle on long climbs helps you rest some muscles. On race you may sit and climb and ride in your most efficient form but in training you work on the weaker aspects of your riding.

Yup, out of the saddle completely kills me. HR shoots up. Trying to practice it though on short climbs.

[kk27]

Raj - that out of saddle with low HR bit & riding bigger gears on flats, on both count when I do it on a trainer I'm able to control my HR even at higher resistance, but outdoors on the real thing the HR just shoots, what am I missing?

[Minkey Chief]

My guess is on the trainer you're missing all that upper body movement to counter the lean of the bike when you stomp on the pedals. Your arms can get pretty tired on a fast ride with climbs.

[raknair]

Also the head wind that work as resistance outside. The body has to go through stress to break through the wind hence the higher HR. This is an interesting thread. We are the most deprived of hill and it takes a whole lot effort to simulate climbing around Bombay. Yeoor is no go till the monsoon is over. It is 7.3% over a kilometer.

Thankfully, these days, we have tuff headwind and tarmac cannot get any flatter for us. I ride low ratios (53/19) for the initial few kilometers and then the mighty headwind comes for good 20 odd kms. I change to 53/15 to ride into the headwind. I consciously put an effort to keep my upper body low and keep steady pace...RPM would be like 75-80. I have two reasonable 4% gradient 750 metres climbs around my neighbourhood. One of them I climb seated with ratios at 53/19 and then other climb I do out of the saddle on 53/17. I have never gone down to 53/11 for a long time. Max I must have done is for 2 kms or so. The seated and out of the saddle effort is now a routine which I am not sure is good.

Also, I have been doing squats and cores for the past 3 weeks. I am amazed at the change of power in my legs. I feel it more when I am heading straight into headwind. Earlier, the tendons and upper thighs would hurt. But no such issues nowadays.

[RNair]

Raj - that out of saddle with low HR bit & riding bigger gears on flats, on both count when I do it on a trainer I'm able to control my HR even at higher resistance, but outdoors on the real thing the HR just shoots, what am I missing?

Outdoors is a whole different situation. For starters when you climb more muscles are engaged and that increases the HR. The glutes, Hamstrings and lower back muscles all work more. Infact when I trained past 3-4 months on the trainer I was more focused on wattage to replicate efforts.