OT discussion on Goals 2012

[Minkey Chief]

I don't want to mess up rpok's Goals 2012 thread because it can be a good one, but some thoughts on the very first post:

Let's discuss goals for 2012. We'll revisit them at end of the year to touch upon where we succeeded and where we failed and what we learnt.

These can be -

1. Training Goals - distance, intensity, duration
2. Racing Goals - events - races/tours you plan to participate in
3. Long Term Fitness Goals.
4. Training Plans to meet your goals (Base, Build, Peak periods) - what are you doing more/different from 2011.

To start off, let's all join Baba's 10,000 mile challenge on DM http://www.dailymile.com/challenges/466 ... -this-year

Emphasis mine. I think all of us joining a 10,000 mile challenge and yet having separate goals is a fundamental contradiction. For most of us here, riding 10,000 miles in one year is a big goal all by itself and can therefore overwhelm any other goals we may have.

For example, in the last few months I have ridden much less than my 700km a month or so average, and have hardly done any centuries, when I used to knock out at least one a week. However, because of concentrated, supervised training, I've become stronger on the bike than I ever have been. I'm starting to see 30+ solo averages, the ability to hang on to fast group rides, and the ability to put in 5,000+ feet climbing days without thinking about it too much.

There are three big reasons for my improvement, all of which are incompatible with putting on large numbers of miles.
1) Focus on technique: Lots of rides with drills that don't cover too much distance.
2) Lots of climbing: A focus on vertical and not horizontal distance.
3) Heavy emphasis on recovery: Something that's hard to enforce when you're chasing big miles.

My opinion is that to be able to meet your training goals and yet ride 10,000 miles in 2012 is going to be very hard unless you're one of the top five strongest riders on this forum or your goal is simply to ride 10,000 miles in a year.

I look forward to your NON-DEFENSIVE reactions to my post. As always, I'm open to hearing different opinions, but as you may have noticed in the recent past, I'm totally closed to hectoring/shouting other people down/passing off of opinions as gospel truth.

[rpok]

I think we can just take it as motivation to ride more. That's all. I have never done 10k miles a year also.
People are free to choose whether they want to be part of that or not. You need not complete 10k miles anyway, so there's no harm in it.

[Minkey Chief]

I think we can just take it as motivation to ride more. That's all. I have never done 10k miles a year also.
People are free to choose whether they want to be part of that or not. You need not complete 10k miles anyway, so there's no harm in it.

"free to choose", "no harm". You sound defensive to me. There was no suggestion intended in my post that your suggestion forced choices on people or suggested a harmful route. If that came through, my apologies.

It's true though that when you join such a challenge it MAY skew your training. I now have the training maturity to know not to join, because I know that if I do join, I don't have the maturity to ignore my standing on the leaderboard. I WILL squeeze out a few more miles knowing that it'll keep me in the running. I might stretch out recovery rides or ride long when I should be doing drills.

I know there are lots of riders out there like me, and my post was a way of discussing how joining a distance challenge can blur their goals. Many riders new to training could actually hurt themselves in chasing miles. I know I overdid it in my early days on DM when I joined distance challenges and made distance the main goal.

[deepakvrao]

MC is right I think. Miles is not by itself an ideal goal to set for oneself. Just my opinion. Quality not quantity etc etc, coming from someone with neither quantity nor quality. LOL

Seriously, hours and intensity count more than miles I think.

This could get pretty interesting, and I mean that in a serious way, not like the 'popcorn' threads of late.

[rpok]

Okay, from what i've learnt over 2 years of cycling (which is pretty short experience), here is what i have to say. I'm not saying what you think is wrong. But i'll highlight a broader perspective about training that i've learnt from the books and seeing others ride and applied to myself.

Goal of Cycling
-----------------
Whatever the goals be of every cyclist, i think everyone has one main goal (i.e. if you do have goals) - to have the best cycling fitness!
Cycling is primarily an endurance and aerobic sport. To excel in cycling, you need to develop a huge aerobic engine.

Aerobic Engine
-----------------
All cyclists have a fitness ceiling, i.e. highest level of fitness - that they enjoy during each year. The height of that ceiling and the duration that it can be maintained depend on the size of athlete's base.
Think of cycling fitness as a pyramid and the fitness ceiling as the height of a pyramid. The broader the base of the pyramid, more the number of levels you can have and higher it can be built. If the base is not large, and you try to make it higher, it will have weak foundation.
An aerobic base is built over years as the physiological changes take place in an athlete's body at cellular level.
It is this aerobic / base fitness that serves as foundation of all cycling activity.

Aerobic Fitness
---------------------------------
Following elements of aerobic fitness should be in place (i.e. stones of base of pyramid should be laid) before high - intensity training.
1. Endurance
2. Strength
3. Economy

These are built by riding more, riding at aerobic threshold, increasing power output at aerobic threshold, incorporating specific pedalling drills to improve economy, checking form of sprints etc.

Advanced Fitness
--------------------
Once the above areas have been worked upon and the foundation is laid (over every cycling year), one can start working on advanced fitness elements like
1. Anerobic Endurance
2. Strength Endurance
3. Power

This is like a topping on the ice-cream. It is put at last. What is the point of going hard at 30kmph, when you could've spent more time (and ridden more miles) at aerobic threshold until your aerobic power had improved for you to sustain 30kmph. Bring more power at low-medium intensity, to leave room for adding more power at higher intensity.

Difference between Aerobic Fitness and Advanced Fitness - Most common myth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most common myth that any athlete who's new into cycling has is that intensity is everything. If his workouts dont have intensity, he feels the ride has no meaning. Wrong.
There is time for intensity, and it should be worked on.
The reason why many people think time effective cycling training done with high intensity throughout the year works is because they do end up seeing some results because of that.
This is because -

"Aerobic fitness takes a lot of time to develop and needs a lot of miles and hours spent on the road and takes years to develop. However once it is developed it never goes away easily.
Anerobic fitness is built very easily with less time and specific short hard rides. But it also goes away quickly - its the top end that needs to be fine tuned from time to time. As you can see from my first year of cycling - 2010. I had very little aerobic fitness (of maybe 3000kms total in life), but a decent anerobic fitness that i built very easily by adding 4000kms of high intensity training. The result was i got into a really good form in Nov, Dec, but i couldn't maintain it for long.
Its again similar to time taken to lay stones of pyramid at bottom and at top. It takes more time to lay the bottom stones - but that time is very critical w.r.t the pyramid. It should not be compromised. In case of erosion, the top stones are the most likely to get eroded than the base foundation stones of the pyramid
So you need to have long miles, especially if you plan to participate in races, tours etc.
Even Friel is of the view that time effective cycling training with lot of LT and VO2 efforts does bring a good form, i.e. the fitness ceiling does go high - but its duration is very less - you lose peak in matter of 1 week or so. Which is why long steady Z1-2 miles are very important. "

I'm not saying quality is bad over quantity - i'm saying there is time for both and neither is bad. Follow a structured plan and incorporate both at different times.

Long rides vs intensity vs drills vs recovery - what to do and when to do
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot has to be developed - how to do it - you fear that if you spend too much time riding base rides, you wont get time for intensity or pedalling drills or climbing etc
1. Spend 12-14 weeks with 90% time in Z1-2 , i.e. below or at Aerobic Threshold (AeT). Remaining 10% should be spent only in Z3. This is the time when you can work on a lot of drills, improve your cadence, pedalling style and basically improve economy. Also with more miles, you'll see that your power at AeT becomes pretty good. Training Load in this period is comprised of more hours and miles and less intensity.
2. The next few months you can target specific elements of advanced fitness you want to work upon and incorporate them into workouts. Distance and hours spent on ride takes a little back seat now. This is because you need to be fresh to carry out intervals. The goals of advanced fitness should be -
- Improve Anerobic Endurance (which means improving power at AT and VO2)
This can be for time trialling, for sprinting, for breaking away, for climbing - whatever your goal or specific interest is.
Training load in this period is more in Z3,4 and 5. Rest and recovery are more important in this period.
3. Plan to peak for an event you want to be your best in. And if you've spent considerable time on building a sound base, you'll enjoy this fitness ceiling for a longer time.

Volume vs Intensity
----------------------
If you're new to cycling, you can become reasonably fit by just adhering to the following rules
- ride moderately
- ride consistently
- train with a plan
- get adequate rest
If you've been cycling for quite sometime and have been doing all these, just riding more will have little impact to your fitness and you will need to bring in intensity in your rides.
Pros need to work a lot on VO2, because that is where their gains come from. They've built a sound aerobic engine over years of riding. VO2 is where their racing outcome depends on.

Goals
-------
So to end this, should the goal be for riding 10,000 miles for everyone - Absolutely no.
If you enter this challenge, will you be forced to ride more - maybe yes, but if you ride smartly and plan your training for entire year, it wont hurt you in long run..
Do you have to worry about completing this challenge - Absolutely no - your aim is your cycling fitness - this leaderboard is just friends motivating each other - nothing more than that. LOL. You're the best judge of where your cycling fitness lies, how you can increase it, and how much time you can spend on areas of improvement.

- Roopak

[Minkey Chief]

Goals
-------
So to end this, should the goal be for riding 10,000 miles for everyone - Absolutely no.
If you enter this challenge, will you be forced to ride more - maybe yes, but if you ride smartly and plan your training for entire year, it wont hurt you in long run..
Do you have to worry about completing this challenge - Absolutely no - your aim is your cycling fitness - this leaderboard is just friends motivating each other - nothing more than that. LOL. You're the best judge of where your cycling fitness lies, how you can increase it, and how much time you can spend on areas of improvement.

- Roopak

My only disagreement here would be: friends motivating each other is a powerful influence, don't play it down. I've seen friends motivating each other into injury and overtraining. It's not because people are stupid, but because all those things you take for granted (ride smartly, plan for the year, judge your fitness etc.) are actually subtle concepts that need a lot of experience to do well. That's all I'm saying. My post is actually an addendum, an adjunct to yours, and NOT a criticism.

[wanderingwheels]

Very nice thread for a beginner like me. TFS.

[RNair]

I will post my view after my ride this morning and why I feel it is necessary to ride many miles as well.

One can do all the intensity and technique but if miles in the bank are empty then it is fruitless.

[Minkey Chief]

I will post my view after my ride this morning and why I feel it is necessary to ride many miles as well.

One can do all the intensity and technique but if miles in the bank are empty then it is fruitless.

True true, I'm not disputing any of that. Maybe I didn't write this clearly enough. I'm saying some riders need to be careful because their training goals could get obscured by trying to chase giant miles. I rode 7,000 something kilometers in 2011. I know I should ride more to put them in the bank in 2012, but I fear that trying to chase 10,000 miles is too much of a jump and could affect my focus on other aspects of training.

Yes, I shouldn't get all caught up in chasing miles if they don't suit my plans (it's just a DailyMile fun thing after all, right?) but as I said before, I do not have that maturity yet. I'll see I'm number 11 on the leaderboard and then throw my recovery ride to hell to get back onto Top 10, for example.

[knmurthy]

Nicely written there,
I have joined the challenge but I am sure I wont be able to ride 10,000 miles
I would be happy to do 10,000KM in this year, previous year I rode a bit more than 5000KM
I alternate between, hard rides, recovery rides, weekend cnturies and then running
Recovery is very important, do at least one ride a week not looking at the average speed
Murthy

[deepakvrao]

Roopak, thats a nice post, and while I agree completely about the need for the 'base', I think after the 2-3 months of base, when you add intensity, the volume of miles will come down. You said it yourself

The next few months you can target specific elements of advanced fitness you want to work upon and incorporate them into workouts. Distance and hours spent on ride takes a little back seat now. This is because you need to be fresh to carry out intervals.

That's why I feel setting a goal for total kms in the year is not the 'ideal' goal.

I think a lot depends on the number of hours that you can devote per week for training. Lots of us here have limited time, and that will necessarily limit the number of miles.

Read a nice book a while ago called the 'Time Crunched Cyclist'. I think that has explained the concept of training with limited hours very nicely. Let me dig that out.

[sarvesh573]

Almost all of my rides are short intensity rides, mainly in Z3 and Z4, lasting for half an hour each, but i do such rides 4 times a day. Will this help build a proper base? Or should i plan for a single 2hr ride to improve the foundation?

[sarvesh573]

And TFS- Rpok

[cryptic_abbreviator]

Nicely written there,
I would be happy to do 10,000KM in this year, previous year I rode a bit more than 5000KM

Thanks MC and Roopak.

Last year was a very patchy ~6k km. 10K *km* for 2012. seems reachable. In January at any rate

1. Spend 12-14 weeks with 90% time in Z1-2 , i.e. below or at Aerobic Threshold (AeT)

That I do all too well

ciao
gr

[cheewachai]

Let me try and Derail this thread ...

My Goal for 2012 is to actually enjoy cycling and cycle only for enjoyment and not let it become another deadline/target to meet ... I would want to start traveling with my bike now and bike in many places instead of just sticking to Bangalore, TFN, Chennai, Singapore.

[deepakvrao]

Let me try and Derail this thread ...

My Goal for 2012 is to actually enjoy cycling and cycle only for enjoyment and not let it become another deadline/target to meet ... I would want to start traveling with my bike now and bike in many places instead of just sticking to Bangalore, TFN, Chennai, Singapore.

Bike Friday?

[narayanv]

I have a question. If my first objective is to lose weight - actually a lot say about 20 kgs - should i be looking at intensity or volume or a balance between two.

[raknair]

In 2010, I rode approximately 8600 kms and last year 8050 kms...in terms of mileage the difference is small in my books. But I am a lot better rider now and the improvement has come over the last 4 months of last year. The mileage saw a significant jump averaging about 950 kms per month. Comparatively, despite Bombay being a hard place to bike, the morning grind on the express highways have done its bit in improving my overall endurance levels. What is however missing is that fighting spirit which I severely lack and that can come only through competition like BBCH or HCC type races. Hopefully, Bombay will see some element of competition like the one we had recently.

To me, the mileage came automatically because the training programme my brother gave me required me to ride a whole lot of distance plus the usual grind. I could have never thought of doing a 20 kms TT average about 38 kmph in 2010 and not even think of anything above 30 kmph in 2009 (Kerala days). Therefore, you need to combine both appropriately.

[anvith3]

this a very informative thread for newbies to understand some basics of training.
thanks for sharing roopak and MC.

[Carpediem]

Nice thread. Helped put a lot of things in perspective.

[cheewachai]

Let me try and Derail this thread ...

My Goal for 2012 is to actually enjoy cycling and cycle only for enjoyment and not let it become another deadline/target to meet ... I would want to start traveling with my bike now and bike in many places instead of just sticking to Bangalore, TFN, Chennai, Singapore.

Bike Friday?

I am right now in mood to consolidate my bike holdings ... too many bikes collecting dust ... May be something more portable is a good idea.

[RNair]

To begin with lets discard the idea from the mind that when we say lets ride 10,000kms or miles we are talking accumulating junk miles of the sake of daily mile or whatever. Atleast I am not. I would like to ride 10,000 miles of quality distance like I do every year. Also I am not in a race to be on the leader board, it serves as a motivation for a guy like me who rides 10,000kms a year alone with absolutely no other references. If I was riding in the US or even Mysore I would probably target 20,000km a year.

Moving ahead...
There are different reasons a person rides. There are people who like to be strong in their weekend club rides and there are those who love long distance and then there are those like Roopak who would love to do well at the elite level.

Whatever the reason maybe you got to put in the miles. It does not need to be 10,000miles even though that figure should be the minimum Roopak or I should be riding to get anywhere in the competitive cycling world even at the amateur level.

I also believe long distance riders should be targeting those figures if they want to stay healthy and ride longer in their life. It shocks me how the long distance riders in India don't even reach 10,000kms a year. A lot are new to the sport and wear and tear does not happen over night and I am convinced many of them won't be riding in 5 years. A guy like Samim rides 3000kms a month and no one learns from him.

Moving forward if I had the ability to change anything on DM I would prefer logging time and not distance. Even at the amateur level a pro coach would recommend 8 hours of riding a week to be a good cyclist. That is a formula for a time crunched cyclist. 8 hours minimum. Last fall when I was training I was targeting time and not distance. I progressively increased it from 8 to 16 hours by the third week of the every month.

Every year my greatest achievement at the end of the year to still have motivation and good health to get up to ride again for the next year. At my age I prefer to live a injury free life and sustain the love for my sport for as long as I can. So I am careful. I know I ride a lot of intensity but I ride 5 times more in base endurance. That is my foundation on which I build my year.

Just to add one more line to the above, I had a bad crash a few weeks ago in an event and I was able to get up, dust myself and finish the ride. I have been thinking of it. Because I do live with 3 severe herniated discs. To my mind my ability to get up and climb Ooty that day was a testament to my fitness today that I was able to overcome it during the ride itself. That incident has motivated me train more this year.

[Minkey Chief]

Every year my greatest achievement at the end of the year to still have motivation and good health to get up ride again for the next year.

Thanks for sharing Rajesh, and on the subject of your quote above, I learned only this year that riding on New Year's Day, no matter what, is quite a ritual for cyclists. I was so guilty about missing many days over Christmas that I made sure I got up early in spite of too much wine and getting to bed at 3am to ride the regular New Year's Day Ride in the mountains here. It hurt then and the ride didn't go as well as expected, but I can't think of a better way to have started the year!

[RNair]

Now my goal for 2012


To be of course better. I know I can still improve so I am going to do what I can to get there.

Biggest goal is always to be a better climber. I am a poor climber. It is just that others don't do well so I look fast on a climb. If I was any good at climbing I won't be targeting to be in the top 200 this summer in my favorite race in Italy. Got to keep a real perspective.

To get there I know I need to increase my cadence hence targeting an improvement of just 5 rpm. Plus I have a great start to 2012 thanks to TfN, my weight is in control for Jan. I would like to weigh around 63 during my peak form. Try to become a 1000 VAM climber for long climbs.

Try to finish as many races as I can with the peloton. Maybe target a few podiums in my age category at some of the easier races.

Ride 16,000kms in 2012.

Nutrition. I know for a fact right nutrition will see me achieve my goals more than any increase in training.

[RNair]

I have a question. If my first objective is to lose weight - actually a lot say about 20 kgs - should i be looking at intensity or volume or a balance between two.

First volume but done correctly and most importantly progressively. So your body adapts to the sport. Later intensity though you will shed more weight as the intensity pick ups but you need to be in good shape to take the burden of intensity without doing harm. You can introduce very moderate levels of intensity after a while.

If losing weight is the objective, then also cross train.